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Huynh Phu Dat

Jul 21, 2014
10:30

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" The economy is set to inflate climate chaos. Let's switch it to pump up a climate rescue! " 100% you made me think about population . Limit of population . 1 person was born , economy grow to supply goods to that persons , CO2 grow . A connection , every countries have limit of population , unless I win this contest so I can tell people we have a limit of population . Every year UN tell us population increase but land size we can live are not increase . We can't grow forever . You have a good proposal . Good luck !!!

Huynh Phu Dat

Jul 21, 2014
10:19

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Actually every countries have limit of population base on a formula , if we focus on CO2 , just convert that formula into CO2 .

Huynh Phu Dat

Jul 21, 2014
10:21

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Actually every countries have limit of population base on a formula , if we focus on CO2 , just convert that formula into CO2 .

Mark Everson

Jul 22, 2014
08:45

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Just tweeted (abbreviated!) this as well in reply to your tweet - it's a good proposal but will need careful structuring to avoid screwing the poorest. Govts & corps will always simply pass costs on to users. Maybe we could build in a sliding scale where a company's premium is calculated in accordance with their efforts to reduce carbon footprint? It would take some fancy accounting to price-up internal effort they make toward this but that's probably doable. So the less you try to mitigate your output, the more you pay to rectify it. Seems fair. I guess there's no reason the same scheme couldn't apply to government departments as well - inventing the accounting tricks to evade it would occupy them for a while anyway... This also dovetails nicely into generating funding my own proposal - "Hydroponic Carbon Capture at Source", there's one in Energy and one in Industry categories. Interested to know what you think. Cheers Mark

Mark Everson

Jul 22, 2014
08:46

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Afterthought - legislation that punished companies who did little to minimise footprints and just tried to pass resulting higher premiums onto users would also be needed. Fair bit of thought needed behind all this but I'm pretty sure there's mileage here.

Climate Rescue

Jul 22, 2014
08:14

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Thanks Huynh, yes population is part of the picture and needs further policy action. Both proposed actions offer potential for people's lives to be regenerative, for example causing nature to expand rather than deplete. This cuts the impact of existing and future population as well as providing more security so people need not have children as insurance against insecurities. Thanks Mark, yes the premiums are calculated according to the producer's waste-risk so worse products will cost more and be less attractive on the market. Carbon footprints are embedded directly in fuel products and indirectly as a production cost in all other products. So no need for extra accounting. Normal market behaviours and the normal innovation process among a producer's competitors would push the slow businesses to go faster. Regarding prices, the shift to saving rather than losing resources and the shift to efficiency/renewables enables future prices to be minimised. Potentially future prices could be lower than current prices, especially by enacting further enabling policies (beyond the scope of this contest). The same premiums apply to the whole economy so government departments are included. Thanks, will look at yours - sounds like it would be fundable by the 2nd action!

Huynh Phu Dat

Jul 23, 2014
10:28

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Dear climaterescue , please read : https://www.climatecolab.org/web/guest/plans/-/plans/contestId/1300201/phaseId/1300637/planId/1308911/tab/COMMENTS#addCommentForm Even when we win this contest , we still have a really long way to go . Solve a problem of 7 billions , not a group , team , social network , community ..... Thanks .

Huynh Phu Dat

Jul 23, 2014
10:08

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" Both proposed actions offer potential for people's lives to be regenerative, for example causing nature to expand rather than deplete ' . Things are not simple like that . Land area of 1 country will not increase to keep up with growing population , so there is a formula , in this world , only China and India break this formula => you already saw how populated their countries became , right ? A connection between a lot of factors . I wish problems are just simple , really . Thank you .

Climate Rescue

Jul 24, 2014
05:38

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Hi Huynh, agree - the whole problem is bigger. But I don't see these broader solutions being crowdsourced or funded. Ecosystems can expand by area, biodiversity and productivity. Huge untapped and even unseen opportunities for all 3, mainly because we stay stuck in worldviews and incentives that shrink rather than expand nature. Rising population is part of the collapse dynamic. Of course the worst outcome is not that it continues to rise, which is unlikely, but to fall dramatically when we all suddenly learn the real meaning of limits. This proposal provides one of the ways to switch the dynamic to regenerative, which includes expanding nature and shrinking population. Thanks for your kind interest!

Huynh Phu Dat

Jul 24, 2014
09:07

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Dear climaterescue , " Ecosystems can expand by area " . Math of CO2 : We have 2 square meters grass absorb 2 lbs CO2 1 year . You plant 1 tree absorb 3lbs CO2 1 year - on 1 square meter grass so : 2 -1 lbs CO2 of 1 square meter grass + 3 lbs CO2 of 1 tree = 4 lbs CO2 . So if we plant 1 tree on grass , we make that area absorb CO2 better than nature do . This is effect . We do " Ecosystems can expand by area " when we plant something on an area that don't have wild plant before , example desert . " Rising population is part of the collapse dynamic " . Even I have a formula about connections , but I think I should think carefully . Really . A too big problem . Thank you .

Huynh Phu Dat

Jul 24, 2014
09:26

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The effect : with the same area , we make it soak , store , absorb CO2 better than nature did .

Climate Rescue

Jul 25, 2014
03:55

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A good example of something that could be funded by either proposed action, thanks!

Dennis Peterson

Jul 25, 2014
09:47

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Interesting! My ClimateCoin proposal is similar to your "pump out" section, using a global cryptocurrency instead of local currencies. https://www.climatecolab.org/web/guest/plans/-/plans/contestId/1300404/planId/1309308

Climate Colab

Aug 5, 2014
08:23

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This strikes me as quite a technocratic approach that is likely to be extremely difficult to implement in practice. How could we measure all these inflow / outflows or carbon? And what exactly is the mechanism through which breakthroughs in carbon capture and storage technology come about? Altogether, I find this a vague and unrealistic proposal. This is another intriguing idea which suffers from being underdeveloped but which seems novel (e.g. obliging producers to obtain 'future insurance' according to risk of their product becoming future wastes in air, land or water.) I really can't tell if the idea has merits though, or whether a "future insurance" would have differentiated impacts from a simple tax on current production. In other words, its not clear why we can't simply consider a carbon tax with border adjustments to be a "future insurance" of the sort proposed here. The local currency section of the proposal is weaker.At the same time the proposal does not consider the political feasibility of the policy, nor offer a strategy to have it seriously implemented. An interesting industrial ecology/symbiosis approach to the climate change problem, but ultimately this proposal lacks sufficient detail concerning the actual carbon price and is a bit too broad to be actionable.

Climate Rescue

Aug 6, 2014
01:44

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Thanks for reading, judges. I trust my replies clarify all your concerns. Judge 1: Technocratic means hard to administer? Actually it's easy. The measurement for fuels is about known quantities of fuel mass and the percentage risk of the fuel ending up as waste (mostly in air). No need for measurements at the point of disposal as you imply. Carbon capture at community scale is again not vague but rather easy. See the many climate colab proposals on this topic. I do it at home with a cooker that makes biochar (charcoal) which permanently builds soil carbon. You should do it too :-) Judge 2: Yes it is novel, but certainly not undeveloped. As noted in the proposal, it is academically published and, unlike other proposals, currently being considered by the European Commission and EU Member States. The proposal clearly notes that action 1 applies not only to carbon and sets out the benefits, including political feasibility, in the section "What are other key benefits?" I hope you read that far? Strategy for implementation is not actually one of the proposal fields requested of authors, however the strategy may be found woven into the design of the actions and all of the other fields. This strategy is based on the observed reluctance of politicians over many decades to "simply consider a carbon tax" and the need for a whole-economy solution for externalities. Judge 3: Funny that the proposal is criticised for lack of detail when further detail could not be added due to character limits. A previous highly detailed version of this proposal was ironically criticised for being too long! https://www.climatecolab.org/web/guest/plans/-/plans/contestId/4/phaseId/10/planId/15101 The breadth of proposals is a key factor that deserves more consideration in the climate debate. Is the failure of decades of climate proposals due to the myth that narrower proposals are more actionable? The start of a meaningful global response to climate and all the related problems may await broad ambitious system-change proposals - and an 'expert' community who support them.
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